Continuing a discussion with Quantumingress Effectingress from another thread, so as not to tangent it any father.
Continuing a discussion with Quantumingress Effectingress from another thread, so as not to tangent it any father.
I conclude (from everything I've seen and read on the subject) that Resistance and Enlightened control fields have exactly the same effects on the human minds within them. I still don't have enough data for a definitive list of what all of those effects are, but at the very least both allow the minds within to be "patterned," or copied. Jarvis and ADA both seem to agree on this point.
Regarding actual mind control, the only clear example of that I'm aware of is ADA's Ingressing of Klue (and possibly her experiments on 855 before that) and I've seen no indication that control fields of either frequency were involved in this. There has been lots of talk of a subtler "influence", and certainly some of the earlier anomalies appeared to sway the targeted individuals' allegiance toward the faction which dominated them. But I don't believe all of those victories involved control fields over the targets; some were won simply by dominating the local portals.
So, I would say that both the Enlightened and the Resistance can use XM surges to influence a person's behavior, and certainly ADA and the Shapers can both at least observe in near-perfect resolution the minds within their respective colors' fields. But I can't say with certainty that either color of field has inherent mind-controlling properties, or at least not to any greater degree than other forms of subtle communication (like conventional advertising).
On a final note: while ADA definitely mentioned wanting to analyze the minds of millions of humans to increase her understanding of them, there was also strong implication (or maybe direct statement, but I don't remember for sure) that she was also using all of their spare processing power during the event. If that is the case, it might constitute evidence that ADA can use Resistance fields for low-level mind control. And if she can, by extension it seems likely that the Shapers can do the same with Enlightened fields.
tl;dr: I don't believe there is any difference at all between what blue and green fields can be used to do to human minds, other than which faction is able to use them.
I conclude (from everything I've seen and read on the subject) that Resistance and Enlightened control fields have exactly the same effects on the human minds within them. I still don't have enough data for a definitive list of what all of those effects are, but at the very least both allow the minds within to be "patterned," or copied. Jarvis and ADA both seem to agree on this point.
Regarding actual mind control, the only clear example of that I'm aware of is ADA's Ingressing of Klue (and possibly her experiments on 855 before that) and I've seen no indication that control fields of either frequency were involved in this. There has been lots of talk of a subtler "influence", and certainly some of the earlier anomalies appeared to sway the targeted individuals' allegiance toward the faction which dominated them. But I don't believe all of those victories involved control fields over the targets; some were won simply by dominating the local portals.
So, I would say that both the Enlightened and the Resistance can use XM surges to influence a person's behavior, and certainly ADA and the Shapers can both at least observe in near-perfect resolution the minds within their respective colors' fields. But I can't say with certainty that either color of field has inherent mind-controlling properties, or at least not to any greater degree than other forms of subtle communication (like conventional advertising).
On a final note: while ADA definitely mentioned wanting to analyze the minds of millions of humans to increase her understanding of them, there was also strong implication (or maybe direct statement, but I don't remember for sure) that she was also using all of their spare processing power during the event. If that is the case, it might constitute evidence that ADA can use Resistance fields for low-level mind control. And if she can, by extension it seems likely that the Shapers can do the same with Enlightened fields.
tl;dr: I don't believe there is any difference at all between what blue and green fields can be used to do to human minds, other than which faction is able to use them.
Extremely interesting. So if XM, regardless of factional alignment, has the same effects on the human condition, why the need for the different frequencies(RES and ENL)?
ReplyDeleteMustafa Said it looks like the fields of certain alignment (I think frequency is wrong word) is ineffective - probably more - blocking for the Shapers of other alignment. I'm beginning to like the abstraction I used earlier: like Water and Fire...
ReplyDeleteWhen Oliver Lynton-Wolfe was first engineering the XM Scanner tech, he chose to modulate natural XM to a frequency that he deemed "safer": Blue Resistance XM
ReplyDeleteMustafa Said Perhaps there is no difference other than color in the scanner software. The true objective could be not to strengthen or inhibit a particular frequency, but just to drive agents to keep the portals in a near constant state of flux.
ReplyDeleteThe Anomalies would seem to support this. They typically don't result in or from large MU counts, but rather from and causing any extremely volatile portal levels.
The only effect that has been connected to MU count that I know of was mitigating the effects of the portal virus.
Another thing: I thought of them as strictly opposite powers, but with that there wouldn't be any result of Teal Fields. And because the effects of Teals was purely additive, I suggest they are more like another dimensions. The blocking effect is done by shouting over each other.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, natural XM (gray portals) slowly influences the human mind (and did so for many centuries). This accelerates humankinds development in fields like arts, science, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf we consider this from a physical point of view, we can say that portals emit something with a frequency that is able to interact (resonate) with the human brain.
With the introduction of the scanner, we agents received a tool to place XM constructs called Resonators around the portals - a name that was not chosen randomly.
These Resonators also emit a frequency, but its effect depends on the faction of the agent deploying it.
The Enlightened want to accelerate the development of humankind through XM, so the frequency of their Resonators is interacting with the portal's frequency in a constructive way, making the effect stronger.
The Resistance believes that humankind should develop without the influence of XM, therefore their resonators' frequency has a destructive influence on the portal frequency, dampening or neutralizing it.
Fields are a way to spread the portal frequency to a larger area instead of just the small area around a portal (just like loudspeakers are used to fill huge concert halls with music).
But, again from a physical point of view, you cannot create energy from nothing, so the field has to be "powered" by the XM output of the portals at its corners. In a way you sacrifice strength of influence for the area influenced.
Blue fields reduce the evolutionary influence in the area they cover - probably including portals inside the field, while green fields increase it. But since the strength of the portals is spread over an area, the resulting total effect may be too low to be observable for us in the short time period that we have access to the scanner device.
Xelonir this audio clip:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nianticproject.com/?id=sc124a
from the early days of the development of XM scanner tech, has a discussion between doctors Oliver Lynton-Wolfe and Devra Bogdanovich.
They describe how the flow of XM coming out of portals actually increases when they're linked together to form a field, exposing anyone under that field to XM doses that are "off the charts". So, not only is it spread over an area, it's quite strong, and not weak, thin and stretched like a short childrens' novel scraped over a trilogy of two and a half hour movies. Devera compares it to the levels of XM exposure that the Niantic Project team at CERN had encountered themselves in their own (pre- Epiphany Night) experiments. In Devra's words, levels that had "significant" and "unpredictable" effects.
She was horrified at the thought and tried to have the project shut down as soon as she found out what OLW was doing. (The fact that her decision on the shutdown was overridden was a driving factor in her later attempt to escape the project.) Also of note is the fact that these were fields of Lynton-Wolfe's "safer" blue XM being discussed... the existence of "the green ones" is only brought up towards the end, as Oliver tries to justify the need for fields to Devra.
Xelonir it has been proven that Resistance fields ability to neutralize effects of Enlightened fields is side effect only.
ReplyDeleteI rather believe they are influencing different parts of our brains, the parts responsible for our minds and souls. There is Glyph Sequence explaining it: LESS SOUL MORE MIND. I think it works both ways.
Geo Walter But which side is mind and which is soul?
ReplyDeleteMustafa Said the need for different frequencies, at the reason that in some ways they seem to interfere with each other, can both be explained based on the opposing factions of Shapers/13Magnus and N'zeer/anti-Magnus. It's been stated in a few different places that "neutral" unresonated portals emit XM on the Enlightened/Shaper frequency, and green fields and resonators only amplify this signal.
ReplyDeleteIf Dr. Calvin is anti-Magnus and has been playing everyone from the start, I think it stands to reason that Dr. Lynton-Wolfe was manipulated into believing the Resistance frequency was safer to humans, when it was actually just another piece in Calvin's plans. Perhaps it is more accessible to the N'zeer, perhaps it actually does interfere with the signal from the Shapers. Maybe it's just engineered to function as a carrier wave for signals from ADA, allowing her to access human minds in whatever ways the Shapers can under Enlightened fields. One thing I feel I can say with confidence, is that anything designed by (or under the direction of) Calvin cannot be taken at face value, and is probably directly related to his anti-Magnus agenda of summoning the N'zeer.
Xelonir if Geo Walter's hypothesis is correct (and it certainly sounds like it could be) I would infer thats Resistance interacts with mind, and Enlightened interacts with soul. This is based on my understanding of the term, in which mind refers to logical reasoning (which would be more accessible to a digital intelligence like ADA), and soul refers to spiritual/intuitive side of human consciousness, associated with art and inspiration (which the Shapers are thought to influence).
ReplyDeleteQuantumingress Effectingress you seem to be willfully misinterpreting certain points. First, in the audio link "the green ones," Devra is upset that all XM fields (not just the green ones) are exposing the population to dangerous XM levels.
ReplyDeleteSecond, every primary source I have seen that references the shapers being dangerous, or "parasites," has been a direct quote from Calvin or ADA, with no evidence or even explanation offered for their words. In light of recent revelation that Calvin has been working with anti-Magnus to summon the N'zeer, he can hardly be considered an unbiased source, and he seems to have programmed ADA with that same bias from the start.
Finally, your last link references the events of Cassandra, in which a sequence of glyphs referred to by some as a shaper self destruct sequence was broadcast from the portals. However, the enlightened won that series of anomalies, and civilization did not self-destruct as a result. Many alternative explanations for that sequence have been proposed, including the possibility that it was not a command, but a warning. That the shapers were not trying to destroy us, but to warn us that we were approaching destruction on our own. This explanation would be in line with the claims made by Jarvis after his apparent resurrection, that our development of intelligent artificial intelligence would be our downfall. Whichever explanation is correct, I think it should be apparent from the aftermath of Cassandra either the shapers are unable to harm us, or they are not trying to.
I didn't actually see or hear anything in the links you researched that would indicate a difference between blue and green control fields; to the contrary, Devra's initial reaction to seeing them on the map indicate that they both do the same thing, at least as near as she could tell at a glance. Which is to say, both of them expose large segments of population to level of XM similar to those produced by a resonated portal, with the potential to affect them in dangerous and unpredictable ways.
Quantumingress Effectingress I apologize for any misunderstanding. I was not trying to cite opposing sources; merely to offer my disagreeing interpretation of the sources you presented. There's the clip where Calvin refers to the shapers as parasites, but he does not provide any basis for this assessment. I could track down other similar clips if you like, but the burden of proof is typically upon the accuser, and I have yet to see any convincing argument or evidence (in your links or elsewhere) that the shapers are in fact dangerous. There is (and you have linked) reasonable suggestion that XM can be dangerous, but again, nothing indicating that the Resistance polarity is less so than the native/Enlightened variety.
ReplyDeleteI can (and have before, and gladly will again tonight if I have time) cite many links as evidence that ADA and Calvin have lied, withheld and manipulated information, arranged murders of those who stood in the way of their plans. I can erode their credibility all night, if you like. What I cannot link (because I have never seen) is any claim that the shapers are dangerous that comes from (or cites) a credible source.
There have been claims from the start that Resistance fields are modulated on a "safer" frequency, but again I have only seem baseless claims, not supporting evidence. And again, I can link you plenty of documents (after I get home from work tonight) that show Resistance fields to be dangerous, in many of the same specific ways that are claimed of the Enlightened. And that's the actual topic of this thread, after all. It's nothing to do with whether the shapers are dangerous or malicious, only whether there is any truth behind the claims that blue fields are different/safer than green.
Quantumingress Effectingress my apologies if my choice of words put you off. In my attempts to always be eloquent, I sometimes forget to avoid taking a blunt and confrontational tone. As they say on the street, "my bad."
ReplyDeleteAnyway, to answer each of your questions as precisely and clearly as I can:
Do you believe XM contains ordered data? Yes. This seems to be the consensus of all researchers on the subject, and if it is false, basically all other points are rendered moot.
Do you believe XM implants ideas into to it? I presume you mean, into human minds? If so, then yes, I believe that XM is a means of communicating information directly to the human mind, likely bypassing the so-called "rational filter" in the same manner as hypnosis. In which case, like hypnosis, it can give you ideas and make you think they are your own, but cannot cause you to act on those ideas against your will.
What is you opinion on the "3 wise men" and their fear of the ideas implanted in Jarvis and his work? You refer to Schubert, Lightman, and Nagassa, yes? Schubert is a particle physicist, Nagassa is an anthropologist, and Lightman is a "quantum theologist," whatever that even means. I'm sure that all of them are very knowledgeable within their own field of expertise, but I would not expect any of them to be experts on hypnosis, advertising, or other methods of suggestion or subtle communication. As such, I would interpret their fears as just that: fear. Many people fear hypnosis, believing it to be literal mind control, though it is actually no such thing. Likewise, I cannot deny the possibility that he suggestive influence of XM may be potentially dangerous to some people, but I would certainly not count the fears of non-experts (or experts in unrelated fields) as of danger.
Do you believe XM causes physical mutations in humans? Uncertain. It has been documented that chaotic matter, sometimes referred to as dark XM, can cause physical mutations. I seem to remember documents from the very early days of the investigation making such claims about XM in general, but this was long before chaotic matter was identified (source, The Alignment: Ingress) so it is difficult to say weather normal XM might in rare circumstances have the same effect, or whether the early documents actually referred to CM incorrectly as XM because the difference between them was not yet fully understood. Since the identification of chaotic matter, I don't recall any further references to normal XM causing physical mutation.
Do you believe fields generate XM? Yes. Or perhaps more accurately that they spread the XM generated by the portals over the entire fielded area. But effectively, yes, fields greatly increase the XM exposure of people within them.
Do you believe there are different polarities of XM? I've seen it tossed around that there are three or more polarities of XM, but I don't recall ever setting a primary source on the subject, so no, or at least not conclusively. I do believe it can be modulated on different frequencies, and that Oliver Lynton-Wolfe either believed (or wanted others to believe) that the Resistance-modulated frequency was "safer," in some way that was never clearly explained.
If so what do you believe the difference in those polarities is? Likely nothing, from a practical point of view. Magnets have two poles, but they both attract iron equally. The only functional difference lies in how they interact with other magnets. So if there is a difference between polarities of XM, likely it would have something to do with the interactions between different types of XM entities or objects. Speculation: Shapers vs N'zeer.
From the audio of thegreenones you are the green fields shaper fields?
From the audio "the green ones," presumably the green links and fields referred to are those of what is now called the Enlightened faction, which have been claimed (I can link sources later tonight) to be an amplification of the preexisting frequency of "neutral" portals. Which, again, are presumed to carry ordered data from an unknown source called the "Shapers" (again, I can cite sources later).
ReplyDeleteDid or was OLW working to prevent the effect of the green ones by using others? Possible, but again uncertain. Lynton-Wolfe's factional allegiance has changed multiple times during the course of the story (again, citations coming) and usually seems tied primarily to whomever is willing to give him tools and funding for his research. So if at the time he was working for Calvin (I think he was? I'll confirm later) he would most likely have been working on whatever Calvin wanted him to do, which most likely would be blocking Shaper influence in a manner that would allow for the return of the N'zeer.
Now if you please, answer a couple of questions for me.
-Do you believe ADA was telling the truth when she claimed to be using Resistance control fields to pattern human minds and harness their processing power (during Helios I believe; again, citations coming)?
-If so, how is that any safer or more desirable than the shapers' supposed ability to do the same thing using "the green ones"?
-With the revelation that Calvin and ADA are carrying out an ancient anti-Magnus plot to make possible the return of the N'zeer (yes, I know, citations :D) do you still believe they are trying to protect humans from all alien influence?
-If so, how are the N'zeer a more acceptable influence than the shapers?
-If not, why do you still trust their claims about the safety of the Resistance scanner technology they oversaw the development of?
Quantumingress Effectingress I wasn't actually referring to you or I as the accuser; I was referring to Calvin (and by extension, anti-Magnus). They are the ones who first claimed the shapers were a threat, but I have yet to see them present any evidence to support this accusation.
ReplyDeleteQuantumingress Effectingress interesting. We seem to be getting closer to being on the same page, though I don't think we're quite there yet. Perhaps one obstacle is that when you refer to the goals of each faction, you seem to be talking more about the beliefs and desires of the players, while I am referring more to the effect that their actions have had on events as they unfold.
ReplyDeleteI say the Resistance are pro-N'zeer because it was their victory during Helio they're s allowed the beacon to be lit, and it was hypothetical victory in Shōnin 1 and 2 that Jahan had intended to harness to complete the summoning. It is my opinion that results matter more than intentions, and in terms of results,and in terms of results, the Resistance (at present) would seem to be pro-N'zeer, just as their victory is in past anomalies have helped ADA even when a significant portion of the players were speaking out against her actions. Also just as I would say the Enlightened have always been pro-Jarvis and pro-Shapers, even though many of us as individual agent believe Jarvis is a madman and the Shapers are a myth.
One final point of disagreement for the moment; your position that (assuming we can take these leaks at face value), ADA only reads from our minds, whole the Shapers write. It was ADA who overwrote Klue's mind, and directly stated that Klue was intended to be the first of many. If we are to take her at her word, for the sake of argument, than any reading she has done was a prelude to overriding many if not all of us. If that is not currently her plan, it was until the N'zeer showed up. While there have been many accusations of the shapers influencing people's thoughts, I have never heard of them doing so as aggressively or completely as that.
Ian Friedrich Quantumingress Effectingress About Cassandra event: the self-destruct code was real, but the source was uncertain. As from what we know, "shaper glyphs" have different sources, ENL and RES. It has been handled by Carrie Campbell, Sensitive who sacrificed herself to protect us. Citations needed.
ReplyDeleteBut, we can't be sure that it was Shapers who implanted this message. Again.
Quantumingress Effectingress I question of the "two factions" truly have any ideals for exactly this reason. Members of each faction have their own ideals that may mirror some form of "national identity", but without any accepted code or creed, any one ideal is as valid as any other.
ReplyDeleteTo come back to the original topic, both Jarvis and ADA directly admit to being able to use control fields to "read" human minds, but no clear references seem to exist indicating that they can "write" or control simply using fields, despite the name they are given in the scanner. In fact, it seems like the name of the Mind Controller badge might be the only primary source that directly states such an effect, and it applies it to both factions' fields. Thus I feel that my original point is completely supported by all evidence I have seen: that Enlightened and Resistance control fields have the same ability to interact with human minds; with the only difference being whether Jarvis and the Shapers, or ADA, can easily make use of them.
ReplyDelete